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Three Interviews with David Epston

Counterstorying, Wonderfulness Enquiries, Witnessing Practices & Possibilities from the Future

With David Epston & Kay Ingamells

Course Description

None of us has an intention of turning people into David’s clone. This is about people being inspired by his practice and turning it into their own.

Kay Ingamells

What lies at the very heart of the artistry of Narrative Practice?  What is a good question and what does such a question do? What is a good story and how does it does it ‘counter’ a problematic story? David Epston, co-founder of Narrative Therapy, has engaged with these questions for over the last 15 years in traditional live workshop formats and more recently in The Apprenticeship in the Artistry of Narrative Practice Program with David Epston, Kay Ingamells, and Tom Carlson.

This course demonstrates  David’s innovative teaching methods to teach the craft and art of narrative inquiry training using immersion learning through transcripts and internalized other questioning to focus on three interviews: 1) David’s well-known interview and follow-up seven years later with Sebastian; 2) David’s interview with counselor Viola who has met 8 times with 16 year old Joel, and then 5 minutes in, he begins to interview her as Joel; 3) David’s interview with social worker Karen as Jane and then as Jane’s son Tim. Each time, David and his close colleague Kay Ingamells review a recorded interview, alongside a transcript, paying close attention to questions and reflections. Relevant papers,  essays, commentaries and opportunities for registrants to contribute are integrated throughout the course.

Each interview and transcript gives an insider view of David’s inventive interviewing practices. David and Kay demonstrate such practices as getting to know a person’s uniqueness, counterstorying, playful approaches and imaginative know-how, haunting from the future, and letter-writing.  For those interested in more intensive training situated within their own practice, this series serves as a gateway to The Apprenticeship.

An Apprentice Spirit

Reflective and Interactive Learning

My hope, especially for those witnessing David in action for the first time through these Three Interviews, is that your lives may be touched in equally surprising, unique and flourishing ways.        Daniela Araujo, Campinas, Brazil, a graduate of The Apprenticeship in the Art of Narrative Practice

While constructing this course, we did our best to encourage innovative thinking. Throughout, we bring in the voices of graduates of The Apprenticeship in the Art of Narrative Practice Program with David Epston, Kay Ingamells, and Tom Carlson. As you’ll soon see, apprentices’ voices are sprinkled throughout, reflecting on the three interviews and contributing to our Padlet interactive spaces.

Course Objectives

Participants will:
  1. Apply “internalized other” interviewing as pedagogy for teaching the craft and art of narrative inquiry.
  2. Synthesize an understanding of and engagement with thinking within stories.
  3. Identify aspects of a narrative questioning approach in at least one of three illustrations.
  4. Describe at least four key practices in this approach to narrative inquiry.
  5. Re-examine the concept of self as bound by individualistic notions.
  6. Apply specific practice questions to develop the concept of “counter-storying” in a specific interview.

To Register

Registration gives unlimited access to all course materials for personal use for an unlimited time. You can start this course at any time: all course materials are available on-demand and adaptable to personal schedules. For an additional $40, registrants can earn 14 APA-approved CE credits through Alliant International University.

Register Here
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If Registered, Click Here to Take the Course

Course Contributors

If I am any judge, this course will attract many students, especially given its very modest cost compared to its competitors. I am hoping that university programmes might purchase it as well, as I consider it as worthwhile as several very rigorous, practice-based MA papers. I also expect this course to be what I have been looking for in the re-imagination of Narrative Therapy practice and securing the kind of community you, Peggy, have been striving to make possible since the inception of Re-Authoring Teaching way back when. I will follow this matter with interest and a good measure of excitement.   (David Epston in correspondence, June 12, 2024)

David Epston

David Epston

David Epston (Auckland, New Zealand) co-founder of narrative therapy alongside Michael White, brings a sense of wonder, adventure and innovation to his conversations and collaborations. What makes a good question? What guides inquiry in narrative therapy? What are some narrative lines of inquiry? The collaboration between David and Michael began in the late 1970s and continued for many years. David’s best-known publications are Narrative Means to Therapeutic Ends; White and Epston (1990), Playful Approaches to Serious Problems: Narrative Therapy with Children and Their Families; Maisel, Epston and Borden (2004), Biting The Hand That Starves You: Inspiring Resistance to Anorexia/Bulimia; Maisel, Epston and Borden (2004), and Narrative Therapy in Wonderland; Marsten, Epston, and Markham (2016).

For more information, please review: David Epston: Improvisations, innovations and collaborations.

Kay Ingamells M.S.W

Kay Ingamells M.S.W., (Auckland, New Zealand) has been working with individuals, children, young people and families since 1990. Kay began her career working with troubled young people and children in residential care and in specialist agencies, then spent nine years working in child and adolescent mental health. For the past ten years she has lectured in narrative therapy in higher education at undergraduate and post-graduate level and has been running a private therapy and counseling practice for children, families, young people and adults. For the last twelve years she has been supervised by the co-inventor of Narrative Therapy, David Epston, and has taught alongside David for the last five years. Kay has published several articles. She is currently writing and presenting about her apprenticeship with David Epston. She also provides one-on-one and group training called ‘Training Through Transcripts’, to narrative practitioners committed to bringing David’s practices into their own work.

Building Interaction

What a wonderful experience to go back to the course and realize how many improvements you have made! The course was already precious. You have crafted it, cutting and polishing it in a way that has revealed its beauty and value.I took my time mostly reading the course. This time I watched David’s interview with Walter Bera – what a precious conversation it is. The invitation to post some comments – with the Questions to Ponder topic -as well as the encouragement to rewatch the video after going through the reflections on the transcripts (on lesson 6b) are so kind. It sounds like a friend’s talk, following us each step of the way. And what an amazing journey that is.” (Adriana Muller, Apprentice and course editor)

Interactive Activities!

While this course was under construction, we discovered the interactive tool ‘Padlets’ as an opportunity for participants to share reflections, takeaways, and emerging questions. You’ll now find these throughout this course! Participation in any Padlet is entirely optional. However, we fully believe that joining will enhance this course experience for us and each other.

Thank you to all who are already contributing your voices to this course!

Lesson Descriptions

Lesson One: Setting the Stage

We introduce David, Kay, and the course which builds on David’s steadfast commitment to the art and craft of narrative inquiry. Kay describes her apprenticeship with David. Together they describe their unique approach to therapy as art and training through transcripts. Kay highlights what to watch for in the interviews.

Lesson Two: How We Teach

How does someone learn the craft of narrative inquiry toward becoming a narrative artist? This lesson begins with the reminder that it is not about learning to become David’s clone. Michael often referred to the quote from literary theorist Lionel Trilling: “It’s the copying that originates.” Akin to improvising in jazz, first you learn the scales, and then you leave them to one side to express your own creative bent. We describe training through transcripts and internalized other questioning.

Lesson Three: Four Key Practices

In this lesson four practices, some well known and others emerging, are explored in greater detail. Join David and Kay in their illuminating conversations on counter-storying, wonderfulness enquiries, witnessing,  and hauntings from the future and have a go at them yourself with our interactive activities.

Lesson Four: The Sebastian Interview

David and Kay demonstrate their approach to training with the well-known “Sebastian” interview, and the follow-up seven years later. In addition to exploring the original video and transcript, Kay gives her commentary.

Lesson Five: Interview with Viola as Joel

In this video, we meet 16 year-old Joel through his counsellor Viola. Joel has very irregular school attendance. When he does attend school he has panic attacks. His father has a long history of drug addiction and violence against Joel’s mother and Joel. Joel has also assaulted his mother. Joel’s wonderfulnesses are evoked and witnessed in multiple ways. These wonderfulnesses are brought forward into the future and set against the problem using internalized other interviewing and future forecasting. A counter-story is told about Joel’s moral identity and this story is witnessed by the important others in his life in such a way that the effects of the past violence are acknowledged and transformed inside this imagined future.