Narrative, neurobiology and the body: part 2

Peggy Sax » Sun Feb 17, 2013

Did you read our archived conversation (above)? I think we have only begun to talk about this topic. Who share a special interest in narrative, the body and neurobiology? What would you like to talk about, and/or to share with each other?

Peggy

Peggy Sax » Fri Jun 14, 2013

Hey Malachy, Sarah, Regina – and everyone else who has gravitated over here from the “FKC” course.
You/we are pioneers. I just want to mark that you are creating a pedestrian bridge between a course and “The Collab.” My hope is that this can become a well traveled route. Conversation from a given course can continue here.

Maybe the courses are like tributaries feeding into the same river? BTW, I just looked up “tributaries” to be sure my geography is correct. Look at the dual definition:

Let the conversation continue!

Peggy

ps Can you let me know if you were able to easily find your way back to the course? Any suggestions on how to make this “pathway” better light and more accessible?

Sarah Hughes » Fri Jun 14, 2013

Hello,
Ok I got here without a problem. Will let you know if I make it back to the course. Tributaries tend to flow in one direction so I am a bit nervous about going upstream!

I am so excited about this topic. For me, integrating some work with the body feels so right.

I was reminded of this yesterday in a couple of powerful sessions – so amazing!! What is interesting is I was doing both these sessions online through video counselling. In fact one woman was out on the ocean in a boat – but I found that the attunement and the body connections were still possible.

Malachy – I am interested in what kind of somatic work you do? Do you use the work of Peter Levine at all – Waking the Tiger?
OK I will trying going back now – very scary!
Sarah

Peggy Sax » Fri Jun 14, 2013

Hi Sarah! Thanks for the alert about Tributaries only going one way. That metaphor won’t work, will it? Any other ideas?

So glad you could make your way back and forth.

Slowly…we are getting there… :guitar:
peggy

Ken Dellow » Fri Jun 14, 2013

Geology can offer one trick of nature. Its the ‘cut-off’. We have one here locally, where the stream has been geologically interrupted, by some earth movement, to ‘jump’ across a – low, admittedly – hill formation and feed into the adjacent valley. Still need to keep on downstream! But, by this device, you can at least change valleys! And continue on in someone else’s stream!
Ken

Cate Ryan » Fri Jun 14, 2013

Hi all,

I too find this topic intriguing and it seems to my coming up in a lot of the narrative places I am visiting (both online and in person) lately.

At the ‘coming back together’ workshop I attended at Narrative Practices Adelaide in April this year we discussed this topic with gusto, as it is an interest for Maggie Carey, as well as others in our intimate group of 4. Maggie seems captured by the way neuroscience seems to have identified ways to demonstrate the way narrative practices, such as re-membering and thickening stories across time and with emphasis on intentions help direct ‘healing’ (not sure if this is the right word to describe it) to the neurons that are more significantly affected by traumas and tricky problems. Is this the work that Jeff Zimmerman is covering in his workshops? I’m only very lightly interacted with this topic so please correct any of my posturing’s if they are misguided.

Malachy, in response to your question from the FKC page: What place does narrative practices make for the body? I wanted to share the experiences I’ve that came to mind for me when thinking about this. Firstly I was reminded of the comments David Espton shared at his Brisbane workshops last year about not limiting our questions to a singular sensory response from the narrator, rather, offer in our questions a range of response for them to share. An example of this is not simply ask ‘how did that feel’ or ‘what did you think’ but extend it to ‘what did this have you (or them if re-membering) feeling or thinking or doing?’ so that our questions do a wider job of seeking out the experience. Especially when exploring the detail of past events or if using re-membering practices, we really went into the territory that explored what we might have seen/smelt/tasted walking into a special place of the person being remember or if we’d been around their presence etc. For me, if find these types of questions and entry point to the body or to open into the body awakening its part of the process and providing a platform to build future practices that might bring people back to previous actions or bodily response they’ve found useful in the past. .

Secondly, as I mentioned earlier at the last NPA workshop I attended, we also did some work where we transferred some to the themes or the externalised intentions or problems into a physical expression. The methods we used included imagery/drawing/symbolism that engaged the visual responses we were drawn too, sound – using breath and sounds as the mode of expression which connected us to the body’s sound expression of the issues, and movement – including dance and focusing on finding the bodies movement that expressed the issues. The experience was very powerful to be apart of collectively and as the person at the focus of the inquiry and what stood out to me was the movement, just like in the narrative style conversations, that happened to release from the expression of the problem to an alternative way of considering what was happening or the preferred way.

Lastly, when hearing your question, I was also lead to my experiences of Absent but Implicit practices that draw from the knowledge and express of the body to learn what it is the body’s response is telling us is possible or perhaps has been transgressed by the problem. I feel the ABI practices are incredibly respectful of the body’s wisdom and stand to account to witness and actually acknowledge what can so often be ignored because of the ‘tininess’ of the action or perhaps the ferociousness of the problem. In my conversations with young people, families and community members, again, this conversations seem to be openings to finding out what knowledge the body holds and how well people are or want to be connected to their bodies. From here, I’ve seen people take steps to commence or re-commence self care practices – which 1 young person described as ‘antidotes’ to the problem.

How does this sit with others?

Cate

PS – Peggy re: the bridge between the 2 sites, something that I’ve ben trying this morning is opening up both sites in different tabs of my web browser to that I can flick between the 2 areas and not have to ‘close’ something off (does that make sense?)
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Cate Ryan

Peggy Sax » Sat Jun 15, 2013

Hi Ken,
Once I got my morning cup of coffee , I could wrap my mind around this one…and… I like it! You mean we can actually change the course of a stream with the ‘cut-off’? Should we mess with the earth’s movement, to ‘jump’ across hill formations to feed into the adjacent valley? We could change valley…and continue on in someone else’s stream! But…will this keep us going downstream? And do we need to always remain well caffeinated to understand? :seeingstars:

Any other metaphors come to mind?

Peggy

Sarah Hughes » Sat Jun 15, 2013

Wow, the conversation about cut-offs and stopping the earth’s movement is hurting my head. I am ok with swimming upstream. I used to work with a fantastic team at an agency and our director was proud of our creative and unique ways of working and often said we “thematically swam upstream as an agency.” This was a high compliment.

Cate – I liked what you said about ABI. I hadn’t really thought about it this way before and I need to settle the idea into my bones as it feels like a profound layer to my understanding of ABI practices. Can you gives me some specific examples of questions you might ask, or things you might notice to be points of entry into such discussions.

I had such a powerful discussion this week with a woman who found out last month that her four year old son was being sexually abused in his daycare. She has done many things to stand up against this, support her son, advocate for policy changes….but she said she could not understand why she still held so much anger in her body. She could feel it as a black cylinder constricting her throat and chest. She took the story into her body so it set up entry way into some somatic ways of working combined with building the story of resistance, protest. As we were moving back and forth between the anger, the protest and the love for her son, her skills in knowing people,intuition skills – we moved around in her body, she felt a big orange smile in her stomach for her joy in seeing her son be an alien in the backyard that afternoon. A bright green feeling of connection to her father and his sense of justice. Lots of sensations and colours connected to her stories of course this was interspersed among lots of other details. But she said at the end that she came to the meeting worried that she would feel worse for talking about it but she felt fabulous and there was “almost a full rainbow inside me” She requested that maybe next time we find some yellow and purple to make this spectrum complete. I hope this doesn’t sound trite as it was really a profound conversation for both of us. I really find that moving back and forth between the stories of trauma and the resistance to trauma on many levels – story and body in the moment of the telling – seems a helpful process.

I hope this makes sense.
Sarah

Regina Jardim » Sat Jun 15, 2013

Hi Everyone
Nice posts : good post:
I cannot think of anything to add but wanted very much to thank you all.
In fact what came to my mind is: The work of David Epston with anorexia for sure is about a very close dialogue between body and understanding. There is the archives of resistance and also the book “Biting the hand that starves you”.
Many years ago I study normal communication in the book: “The pragmatic of human communication” – Watzlawick et all. I learn that many non-verbal gestures were in fact verbal (digital) communication. I so wonder if sometimes we are speaking with the body even if we are not directly mentioning it.
Does anyone here knows the book “The skillionaire in every child” by Marie-Nathalie Beaudoin? It is wonderful to work with children and their family. She works in the same line as Jeff Zimmerman.
Still thinking about the metaphor.
all the best
Regina Jardim

Ken Dellow » Sat Jun 15, 2013

Hi
Sorry to cause your head pain Sarah. And I hope I don’t cause you to overdose on caffeine Peggy! But I am captivated by the use of metaphors in the narrative way of looking at things. Man? (sorry to limit the gender!) that is one conversation I would have liked to have had with Michael. But maybe he wouldn’t have liked my dry wit!
But the language is important, and I like the way the approach leads into new territories – albeit via tributaries or cut-offs or even going up-stream (like a samon? – any west coast Canadians about???).
Which sort of leads me to this. I struggle when the discussion resorts to short hands. We do have other cultural backgrounds and languages on board Peggy’s boat. Could we please reduce the use of abbreviations. Also, I worked in IT for quite some time, and this world of therapy – narrative in particular – is a refreshing change from the techo environment. So to ABI something – even NPA – I would feel is a little against the spirit / flow / tributary of the conversation???? Maybe we should even relabel FKC, Peggy, just ‘Key Concepts’. My feeling in reading Michael’s books and others writing, is that in narrative work, we are using the language, the full texture and visual connection – especially in a fully on-line course like this.
Wot thinkst thou – says he reverting to another language!!!

Cate Ryan » Sat Jun 15, 2013

Hi Everyone,

Ken, thanks for the feedback about your experience of language and ‘the refreshing change’ it’s been to connect with the fullness of language in narrative. I’ve just re-read your introduction as I was wondering about what path had lead to the change from Information Technology to narrative ways of working and counselling and I saw that alongside your possum co-education you’re volunteer counselling. I’d love to know more about how you’ve found this experience of shifting between areas of work and what keeps you connected to your new commitments?

I also share the acknowledgment that language has great power in shaping our experiences and your reminder has got me thinking that perhaps I was possibly trying to find ‘quicker’ ways of documenting after writing the terms in full for their first acknowledgement. If I do slip into the habit it’s not intended to cause offence or make things difficult so I will keep focused on inclusive ways. As for naming the ‘FKC’ in my mind, it is ‘the course’ as it is the short term interaction and learning space and where we are having this conversation now is ‘the collab’ and I’m open to hear other people’s namings to be flexible. When it comes to the co-construction of metaphors and names of collaborative ventures however, I would hope that the terms can be accessible to everyone.

Regina, I have not heard of that book, when did it come out? Has there been anything in Marie-Nathalie Beaudoin’s work that you’ve built into your own understandings or practices? Thanks too for the reminder about David’s work around the archives of resistance, this nasty problem is raising it’s head again in my work and I think I will re-read again to draw some strength.

Sarah, when I think of the body’s wisdom and absent but implicit inquiries, I think what stands out to me is a stances to be constantly open to seeing and re-seeing what’s in front of us to seek an understanding of actions that are happening that perhaps we don’t have a spoken knowingness of yet. I suppose the way I use these practices is similar to the way they were introduced to me by Maggie Carrey, Shona Russell and Rob Hall, which is asking questions of what I might see – “what are the tears telling us about what’s been transgressed in/by (this situation)?” “what did that act (what they did) when you saw (blah) tell us wasn’t okay?” “in taking those physical steps away from the troubles were you making a stand or a protest or a resistance to something?” “”what is that churning in your stomach connecting to? telling us about what’s important? warning us of?” I think i use similar questions with cuts, aches, pains, not sleeping
I think these are probably some of my starting points, looking and re-looking for the actions, big or small that show us through the body something being expressed.

for the young person that co-constructed ‘the antidote’ together with myself and a friend, we were able to do this after learning more about the stand they took against the violence their grandfather used in the household and find resistance their body used, including huge hours of study, not leaving the house and moving barricades to rooms and how this had also connected to times in her past where they’d made a stand against bullies and racism in school. the antidote practices began another way to resist the tricks and effects of the violence by taking time out and finding new ways to connect to them self, like a daily walk, relaxing at the sunset, breathing techniques, yoga etc. for the young people i work with, i see this as a connection to body work because it gets them connecting and using their bodies in ways that replenish, coming out of the dominant stories and thinking thinking thinking that is so much a tactic of anxiety and traumas (as well as resisting or replacing other acts uses as substance misuse or cutting etc that often perpetuates the goals of the dominant stories).

where is this sitting in your body now? did it ready your bones or is it bubbling somewhere else? or perhaps bounced off?
Cheers,
Cate

Malachy Coleman » Tue Jun 18, 2013

Hi Sarah, Cate, Ken and Peggy,

It has taken me a bit of time to jump into this new stream and catch up with you all. I don’t know if we are going up or down, or along another valley, but right now, what matters more to me is the streaming feeling I have of being here together here. There is so much to say, and so much has been said already. But I will attempt to go on.

Sarah, you asked about what training I’ve had in somatic work. I’ll give a brief overview of my experience and knowledge so people can understand where I am coming from and hopefully benefit from it by asking more questions.

I did about seven years of training in Biodynamic Psychology (Gerda Boyensen) and in Biosynthesis (David Boadella), two neo-Reichian approaches which form the backbone of my particular practice. It’s hard to describe this body of knowledge without using language which might exclude those who are unfamiliar with this kind of approach. One of the great strengths of Biodynamic work as I see it is the capacity to work with experiences rooted in the pre-verbal period. These pre-verbal experiences are sometimes typified by people who come to therapy who find it difficult to articulate why they are there and what they are looking for. The emphasis in the work is on lying down, developing contact and a sense of connection. There are also very specific massages to the muscle chains involved in the startle reflex response. Some might describe this as developing a ‘good mother’ experience.

Biosynthesis on the other hand allows people to stand up and move around in the therapeutic encounter At birth, all the neurological connections needed to make co-ordinated muscular movements have not been developed in the brain. This is important to appreciate. Body motor fields are developed at different stages of development after birth. Consequently, these motor fields develop neurologically in a particular social and family context.

In a supportive context, pushing away for example is allowed, encouraged and acquired. In an unsupportive context, this movement is withheld out of fear or a need to please the other. But the intention to push is there somewhere in the body, so the therapeutic work is about allowing the person to re-dis-cover this movement – and experience its intention as formative, meaning how it lead to higher levels of organization with the person’s own best interests at heart. In this sense, Biosynthesis is about how we stand up in the world and could be described as the ‘good father’ experience.

Then after exploring Neuro-Linguistic Programming, Eriksonian hypnosis, and solution-focussed therapy, I came across Shapiro’s Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR). I trained in an evolved model of EMDR developed by a group of psychiatrists here in Nantes called Hypnose Thérapie Brève et Mouvement Alternatifs (HTSMA) – which translates into English as Hypnosis Brief Therapy and Alternative Movement – which actually incorporates significant elements of narrative practices and understandings. This work is something I could share with you in more detail if people are interested.

Because of my focus on the body, I have always had a particular interest in trauma, how traumatic experiences are incorporated and embedded somatically. And whilst narrative practices have been empowering by expanding my ability to include and use the social context to help people move out of the world of trauma, I have remained dissatisfied with results for some clients when the body seemed unable to accept these invitations to explore alternative story lines.

So more recently, I have trained with David Berceli integrating his Trauma Release Exercises (TRE), a set of deceptively simple movements people practice for self care which allows the body to tremble and release chronic tension in the core muscle system, particularly the psoas. The results I am seeing are very encouraging, particularly when combining narrative practices and the understanding of the neurobiological process of traumatic experiencing.

There is a very brilliant book describing the neurological process of trauma by Robert Scaer called “The Body bears the Burden”. Having worked as a neurologist for many years with people suffering from whiplash, and having noticed the discrepancy between racing car drivers who never had this condition despite severe crashes whilst people in 10 mph collisions became handicapped for life, Scaer concludes that what made the difference was the meaning the person attributed to their experience (pg 14). This understanding dovetails into the strength of narrative practices help people de-construct thin meanings attributed to events and recover thicker, more preferred meanings.

For me, one of the key insights from neuroscience is the understanding that memory is actually holographic. In other words, the multi-layered experience of an event is broken down and memorized in physically different parts of the brain. In order to recall the memory (the story), the brain has to recover all the different elements – cognitive, emotional and sensorial through a complex network of connections. When the brain evaluates recalling a particular event is dangerous or painful, certain layers of the experience will become unavailable. For example people might have a certain feeling but be unable to link it to a particular place. The neurological network of connections breaks down or becomes ‘thin’ and the meaning of an event then become insipid, at least on the conscious level.

The old story about the brain was we were born with a fixed number of cells and we loose a certain number every day. But the new story is that the number of interconnections between brain cells is increasing exponentially every day, and therefore more than compensating for this so called loss.

Narrative practices like re-membering stimulate the connection of layers of experience into new combinations and therefore opens up the possibility for other meanings to be recovered or discovered. So to me, narrative conversations are rather like neurological re-wiring of people’s brains happening as the storytelling process unfolds.

For example, when you ask a person one of those wonderful narrative type questions, the kind that elicits the response “Oh, that’s a great question” or “Oh, I never thought of looking at it that way” and is then followed by a silence, and later admission of not being able to answer it. I often thought in these moments I had asked the wrong question, that I was expecting the person to climb a step which was too steep for them. But when I asked people at the end of our conversations what had been useful, they would often point to these questions they hadn’t been able to answer as being the most useful moment in the conversation. I suspect people find these momentarily unanswerable questions useful because it generates a kind of neurological stretch and reorganization they can sense is happening and is beneficial but cannot articulated clearly with words.

Kate, I take your point about David Epston’s suggestion to ask questions which open the field of investigation like “What did that have you feeling, thinking or doing?” instead of “What are you feeling?” which tend to close down what the person will consider. And it is true, there is a tendency in body-focussed work to be more directive in asking about sensations rather than cognitions or emotions and this is not always positive practice.

But sometimes, it is necessary and useful to bring such a focus into the conversation. I am continually astonished by how hard it is for people to connect and talk about the sensations in their bodies. I don’t know if this is because of a process of acculturation where guilt or shame cut people off from the sensations in the body because it is ‘dirty’ or if it is because people are in disassociated states or both. I’ve had people say to me after I’ve asked them “What is the sensation?” that they can feel sensations but are unable find words to describe or locate these experiences. When this happens I sometimes shift into a more educational role by offering suggestions or metaphors, and this can help. I guess the art of the therapist is being able to judge whether it is more appropriate to ask an opening space type question or to ask a more sensorially focussed one.

Kate, in relation to your recent Narrative Practice Adelaide workshop, I would be really interested if you could give us a example of what you mean by transferring an externalized intention or problem into a physical expression. Would it be something like inviting the person to define a space in the room and express the problem which is interfering in their life as a particular posture in that space, and then stand back to observe “the problem posture” and its effects on their life?

Your observations about using Absent but Implicit in relation to the body sound wonderful. Again, an example would be helpful to see this in action. I understand the significance tiny movement can have in the retelling process and bringing attention to this. But sometimes I have made the mistake of wanting to talk too much about the experience of the body movement at the price of failing to support and amplify it first. When someone makes a gesture which has been identified as significant, then rather that ask about the body’s intention for the person, I invite the person to repeat the movement or even give all the space the movement needs to go to the end of itself. In such moments, the body itself transports the person into another and new territory. Again, it is about balancing that fine line between talking about experience and entering into the experience itself. The latter tends to be more challenging for the therapist because you can find yourself just as lost as the person or persons you are working with.

Malachy

PS: Ken, I take your point about using abbreviations and have spelled it all out here in an attempt to be as accessible as possible.

Sarah Hughes » Tue Jun 18, 2013

Yes I agree sorry for the ABI absent but implicit. It is just such a mouthful! But as I typed it I thought about the feeling it might cause of being in the know and not in the know. I should have listened to that inner voice.

I know people often comment that Narrative Approaches are exclusive as they use a special language.

Thanks for the reminder!
Sarah

Sarah Hughes » Tue Jun 18, 2013

Hello,
I hit reply on page one in response to Ken. Thanks again Ken. And then I saw there was a page two! And I have been delighted to immerse myself in this conversation.

Malachy, I feel like your ways of working are very similar to mine in terms of ideas around releasing trauma and working with sensation. I am going to look up some of the books you mentioned. Somatic transformation is the name of the process that I have been trained in and that I find so useful in integrating with narrative ideas.

I really resonate with what you were saying about a person being moved by a question but unable to find the words. Sometimes I go with the sensations if that feels right. I just had a friend return from a spiritual retreat that she found transformative and she hasn’t been able to find words adequate to describe her experience. I will share your thoughts with her.

I kind of feel that way about these posts – moved beyond words. So Cate you asked some questions about the sensations
And I feel these posts in this tributary as sparking bursts in my throat and chest . It is not painful but energizing! I have the image of fireworks!
Thanks!
Good night
Sarah

Peggy Sax » Sat Jun 22, 2013

Hello Sarah, Malachy, Cate, Regina, Ken – and anyone else reading this,

I loved reading this exchange. There is a lot here to think about, and I know there is even more to say. I have a question for you. What do you think of the idea of writing something on this topic?

When I first started the Study Group, we relied primarily on “Guest Authors.” Soon it became apparent that in addition to being guided by already published mentors, we narrative practitioners make discoveries, and develop fresh ideas ..such as here in your exchange. Over the past few years (for those of you who have been here…), we’ve been talking about helping each other move forward with dreams, and writing in particular.

I never thought I would publish anything…until I did because I felt compelled to write something that hadn’t been published before. …You really have something to say here….

I have come to love the (revised) saying, “it takes a village to write an article.” Hey- we’ve got quite a village here, don’t you think?

The only article I know on this topic thus far is the one in 2011 by
Marie-Nathalie Beaudoin & Jeffrey Zimmerman:
Narrative Therapy and Interpersonal Neurobiology: Revisiting Classic Practices, Developing New Emphases: Journal of Systemic Therapies: Vol. 30, No. 1, pp. 1-13.

Has anyone read it? Here is the abstract:

This article reviews some of the recent advances in brain research and the growing field of interpersonal neurobiology, which we believe supports a number of narrative therapy premises. Highlighted is the potential usefulness of thinking about unique outcomes as “moments” of “affect-infused” experiences. The concepts and theory proposed are illustrated by the description of three therapy sessions with a 28-year-old woman struggling with anxiety and depression, and a transcript of an intentionally “affect infused” re-authoring conversation. (Read More: https://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jsyt.2011.30.1.1)

I see Marie-Nathalie has also produced a video (it’s just a bit expensive).
Neurobiology and Narrative Therapy: Therapeutic Practices for Lasting Changes (https://www.amazon.com/Neurobiology-Narrative-Therapy-Therapeutic-Educational/dp/1463116713)

So…that is where you come in. If you like this idea, I’ll list some possibilities that come to my mind (In the spirit of brainstorming – take or leave)

Write up what’s been said as up as a conversation – bringing together ideas from people across the globe in Canada, Brasil, France, Australia..and?
Instead of as conversation, you could write more of an article with several authors: Someone take the lead in distilling what has been said so far (if you include the archived reflections – just make sure you credit people). Then circulate it here for revision;
We create a “Collab-Chat” – real time conversation, when we can interview you more about these ideas, and have your thoughts transcribed…this could add to either 1 or 2.

I think David Epston still runs his column “The Corner” in JST. I once wrote something for “The Collab” – just a few pages. I could ask him if he’d like a column about “Narrative, Neurobiology & Trauma” – I bet Ken could think up a catchy title…

Think about it… If you are interested, I’m happy to help.
:typing:
Peggy

Peggy Sax » Sat Jun 22, 2013

Hi Ken,

I meant to write before but then forgot. I agree. Let’s keep away from initials whenever possible. I am going to try to use “Key Concepts” instead of “FKC” whenever possible! Meanwhile, I love your metaphoric mind…

Peggy

Malachy Coleman » Sat Jun 22, 2013

Hi Peggy – and Sarah, Cate, Regina, Ken and anyone else dropping by,

Concerning your suggestion we write something together about this subject, I am fully support your initiative.

There is a lot going on here in this conversation for sure and I would be happy to ‘thicken’ the process with a view to producing something which could be shared with a wider audience. As you say Peggy, I too have felt compelled to publish something about this area for years now because so little has been written about it . In fact I have been working on a writing project of my own for over a year focussed more on the body side. But narrative ideas have never been that far in my mind and I would be thrilled to work collaboratively in a more narrative perspective.

I am just not clear on the process you are suggesting we use to step forward together on this.

Write up what’s been said as a conversation

Or are you suggesting some kind of literature review on this theme by people within other perspectives? Or by people working specifically with narrative practices?

Or are you asking us to draw on what has been said in the conversations with the people who come to see us, and draw it out, so to speak, out of our own local knowledges?

Or do you mean someone takes this conversation thread here, and write up a summary or a reflection on what has been said so far, and then shares it, to get people’s own witnessing of such a text?

Or am I off the radar here, and you have completely different ideas in mind?

Sorry for all the questions, but if the working process is clear, then it’s easier to know where to concentrate one’s effort.

Malachy

Regina Jardim » Sun Jun 23, 2013

Hi Peggy, Malachi, Sarah, Cate, Ken and all Friends here

I am having quite a week and not only personnaly. I don´t know how much the international midia is saying about what is happening in Brasil. It looks like the Brasilian Spring ( as the Arabic Spring). It is in fact a beautiful movement and very imoressive for thousands of people and so few opportunists, but the opportunists is the only thing the television shows.

We are on a very special. not perfect but it remind us our own voice can be heard. Very impressive indeed.

The personnal aspects I will be talking about on “I need a witness section”.

I very much like this conversation about writing together. Thank you Malachi for your questions. They very much help to create such breaktrough project.

I want to share with you a very good link on the subject:

https://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/e … klash.html

I hope it can contribute with our conversation.

all the best

Regina Jardim

Malachy Coleman » Sun Jun 23, 2013

Hi Sarah – and Peggy, Ken, Cate and anyone else dropping by,

I looked into Somatic Transformation and discovered Sharon Stanley’s incredible work. I understand more fully, Sarah, why you say your Somatic Transformation work resonates so much with my own. Wow! Very much on the same page.

Consequently, after looking around on the net, I came across a really interesting interview with Sharon Stanley where she describes her work with clients from a body-centred perspective while incorporating understandings drawn from neurobiology to explore experiences of trauma. Her language is simple and accessible.

You can either read the interview here https://somaticperspectives.com/zpdf/2011-02-stanley.pdf or listen to the podcast here https://somaticperspectives.com/2011/02/stanley/. I found this interview very inspiring and imagine it might strikes cords with the rest of you.

Her reflections on the place of the body in cultures subjected to oppression over centuries is an eye opener!

Malachy

Peggy Sax » Sun Jun 23, 2013

Hi!

I’ve been a bit immersed in doing what I can to simplify Moodle. I might have bitten off a bit too much of a chunk…No matter what, I am so happy to bring everyone together as “test pilots.” Reading this conversation renews my energy.

Malachy, I am really happy to hear you are already writing. Maybe this conversation – and a shared writing project- might further strengthen those writing muscles? Let me see if I can respond to your questions. Keep in mind my ideas were in the spirit of brainstorming..and in the service of encouraging you all to consider a shared writing project.

Write up what’s been said as a conversation

When you wrote this, Peggy, did you mean each of us pulls in ideas from the different directions we are each reaching out to, beyond what is considered narrative practices and pool them together – ideas which might fertilize our thinking about how to elaborate how we consider body, trauma and neurobiology within a narrative standpoint? Yes! that sounds good to me. You might then create a conversation with your names and locations in which you draw forth the various ideas that fertilize your thinking….You could even have a conversation between 2 of you, with the others acting as outsider witnesses….Or some variation…The point I wanted to make is to lean into the collaborative spirit, and avoid the constrictions of a more formal article.

When you say ‘write up what’s been said’, what are you referring exactly? Who has been doing the saying you think is important we should be listening to?
I only meant to review what you’ve said here – and the archived reflections too- to see what you’d like to include. .I was thinking that a conversation is often a good way to get an article started between co-authors.

Or are you suggesting some kind of literature review on this theme by people within other perspectives? Or by people working specifically with narrative practices?
You might also add a few resources and to cite those that come before you. Yes, I would include anything relevant that has really touched you. Part of what excites me is how you are bringing together from different fields – narrative practices are really the new kid on the block, right?

Or are you asking us to draw on what has been said in the conversations with the people who come to see us, and draw it out, so to speak, out of our own local knowledges? I was thinking primarily of your own local knowledges, but first I imagine you would want to give voice to what & who has influenced you.

Or do you mean someone takes this conversation thread here, and write up a summary or a reflection on what has been said so far, and then shares it, to get people’s own witnessing of such a text? That also might work – as a starter dough… I don’t see that as an either/or but as a possible way to get started…

Or am I off the radar here, and you have completely different ideas in mind?
Totally on radar..All you need to do is figure out what you want to do, how you want to structure it, and get going… I’m happy to help as best I can- just let me know.

Looks like Regina is on board…How about others?

Sorry for all the questions, but if the working process is clear, then it’s easier to know where to concentrate one’s effort.
I like questions! And I love your enthusiasm. I often feel like a freak for being so eager and enthusiastic. you make me feel more normal!
Peggy

Malachy Coleman » Sun Jun 23, 2013

Hi Regina – and everyone else

Thank you for the link to the recent New Yorker article about the neuroscience backlash.

A timely reminder that neuroscience research cannot, and probably never will be able to explain “everything”. Certain brain imaging industries may be disappointed when they will be forced to temper their zeal in stamping out ‘mental disorders’ using such science and technology. In particular, I am referring to CereScan, a company founded in Denver in 2008 who claimed to be able to diagnose mental disorders using brain scans. If you can read French here is a fuller article about CereScan from the Monde Diplomatique in December 2011 https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2011/12/APPAIX/47036

I am glad you found my questions useful. I was wondering where they may have taken you to and what ideas, images or visions they may have connected you to about writing in a collaborative manner.

Also in my previous post, I mentioned Sharon Stanley who actually worked in Brazil. Here’s something she said in the referred interview:

Since I worked there for approximately five years… since then I have been working with the culture in Brazil. It’s an Afro-Brazilian culture that draws on the experience of African practices that were used as recourse to the trauma of slavery. And so, I have been very interested for the past six years and traveled to Brazil. And, the philosophy and the practices of these ancient cultures that people used to negotiate, navigate, through actually centuries of slavery. And I’m very moved by the love that was developed in their culture as they did that.
She intimated that people’s experience of slavery over centuries had led to a very strong connection with the body which enable them to survive.

Perhaps what we are witnessing now in your country is an embodied movement rooted in people’s near-felt experience rather than from outside ideas telling them what should be good for them.

os melhores desejos,

Malachy

Malachy Coleman » Sun Jun 23, 2013

Hi Peggy and Everyone Else,

Thanks for answering ALL my questions. As if you didn’t have enough to do as it is, moodling about in the world like that, biting off a little more than you can chew. Don’t I know about that scenario. Well, here are my reflections back to your answers and hopefully inspiration will flow from EVERYONE ELSE on this thread as a result.

Write up what’s been said as a conversation

If I was to sit down and draw the spider web of names and locations I’ve drawn from down the years, it might take up quite a lot of space. But I think it would be a worthwhile exercise – like my tree of life for this project. Maybe that’s what I will do, then scan it and post it in the thread and see where that transports people to. Anyone else up to ‘thickening’ the conversation in this way? Like Peggy suggests, it could be between 2 of us, though the more the merrier in my book.

Ok – this makes sense. I’ll review the thread from the beginning, note what captures my attention and report back with what I would like to include in the future.

Perhaps other people in the thread have done this, or at least partly. Constructed their own bibliographies around these themes. It might be a good idea in itself to develop a shared bibliography – books, articles, sources, stories, etc which covers this pretty vast territory.

When I asked this question, I was really thinking about the local knowledge we develop from being with people in therapeutic conversations that might nourish our reflections on the theme of neurology, body and trauma. I have been trying to write about this for some time, and it is actually very difficult to put the inter-subjective nature of therapeutic relationships into written words.

Giving voice to what and who has influenced me in this regard is a whole other deal. This could be the basis for an outsider witnessing conversation between us here on the thread. Who or what inspired each of us to meet up here on this forum to explore this theme?

[I am asking the question but I will answer it later in a separate post]

I think we’ve already covered this point above. But I agree – it’s just one way to start.

Then I guess the next question is who is game? Who else wants to start doing a lot of typing on the keyboard? Who else wants to write a collaborative piece around this theme?

[Peggy – just thinking out loud, is there any way to centralize the information we are bring together. Specifically, I want thinking about all the links people are sharing on the thread – if there was a way to put all those links into one place, ordered by theme, to grow into a resource, a knowledge base of some sort. Is that something you could set up?]

Ahh – I am so glad you told me my enthusiasm is making you feel normal. I was beginning to feel a bit freakish about it myself [sigh of relief]. But this is such an incredible project you’ve moodled into the world, I just feel privileged to be part of it.

Malachy

Peggy Sax » Sun Jun 23, 2013

To my fellow enthusiast(s), :tease:

Have you seen Kay Jamison’s book, “Exuberance” ?Her TED talk is quicker: Exuberance: The passion for life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXAK9qbRh4.

David Epston calls us “Exuberants.” You are one of us, Malachy!

You should see my house right now…..I have just dumped a HUGE container of legos into the bathtub to clean before choosing some favorites to bring in a couple of days to my grandchildren. We found this box in our basement – filled with legos that belonged to my children, and now we will passed them down to THEIR children. I don’t know where the time goes….but the cliche is apt: time goes faster and faster, the older we get…

Anyway…back to the topic. What you wrote is GREAT and I share your excitement. re “a way to put all those links into one place, ordered by theme, to grow into a resource, a knowledge base of some sort. Is that something you could set up?” I have one suggestion. Recently someone Someone highly recommended to me some writing software called Schrivener: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php?show=features&platform=mac if you use MAC. I see it is also available for Windows 8/PC: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php?platform=win

I LOVE what I have been able to try out. It includes a bulletin board where you can pin stuff you collect along the way. Have a look and see what you think, and let us know. You can try it out with a free 30 day trial, and then it is reasonably priced after that. I’m not sure how it might work to use as a group – can you see if that is possible? Otherwise we might use something like Google docs (is that now called “Google Drive?”).

Hey- thanks too for the support around Moodle. :screaming: I am about to watch a youtube on “Creating Moodle Groups” to see what is possible this section…Thankfully we are having thunderstorms so I am restricted indoors…

Have fun-
Peggy

Cate Ryan » Wed Jun 26, 2013

hi everyone,

just a really quick note to say that this conversation has been rolling around in my head over the past few days and i’ve been meaning to get back here in this space.

I love the enthusiasm being expressed around this topic, however, I don’t know that I am at any stage of my work with the body to write an article. I would be happy to support the process with reflecting alongside writings as done in the past here at the collab – especially as there really does feel like there is a growing sense of knowing from practice developing here.

Malachy, I have not forgotten your questions too seeking examples of the experiences in the workshop.

In short, yes, invitations to express postures were one way to showing the externalized problem as a physical expression. Other things we tried included inviting a person to think of the effect of the problem we’d been exploring through externalizing conversation and then finding a movement within their body or a series of actions that would express or connect to the experience. This included an movement we did altogether to show the movement of the problem in a persons life and from the movement they actually shifted their way of seeing the problem and found ways to redefine its meaning. Another example was to ask the person to use movement to break down the different effects and then invite an expression of the preferred way of being. These were then mirrored back to the person and they reflected what it was like to see these movements and altered the movement to how they wanted it to feel and we transported from the grate of the problem to a soothing of the prefer ways action.

Using other senses, we also tried out connecting to symbols and pictures to demonstrate the effects/existence/impact of the problem and then again, shifted to finding representation of the preferred through symbolism. This included connecting to colour, shape and depth of visuals and we spoke about the ways this also connects to art therapy modes of expressing the experience through touch/drawing etc.

Lastly, we also tried out sound – one of my favorite as it connects to a lot of my experiences through the discipline and practice of yoga. Here we invited the person sharing their story to express the externalized problem as a sound. I first did some breathing techniques with them to warm up to and connect to their breath in their body and we did this with eyes closed. The person then responded to questions we asked about the elements of the story – like stuckness or emergence or what’s on the horizon etc – with sounds that connected to the different elements. With permission of the person who was expressing their story through sound, we also joined the making of sound in echo of their expression and for this person they said it help them connect and bounce off the people, finding their way through to the preferred unstuckness. What emerged at the end of this experience was the person coming to find a new vision of where to take their next steps and definitely not a ‘solution’ however, an awakended connection type thing to their sense of agency to take some steps towards the preferred way.

importantly, throughout all of these body experiences, the questioning and scaffolding that were used was through the narrative frameworks – externalised, seeking possibilities, rescuing the said from earlier conversations/descriptions and seeking understanding from the senses and drawing out and connecting themes to evaluate and find what’s possible.

I found the sharing and participation of these experiences incredibly powerful and actually it left be quite restless on returning home and has resulted in me using some agency about things in my life too so the witnessing and transport was definitely accessible for me.

I’ve sorry if this all sounds rather vague and not clear about the experience. I haven’t described them to anyone before so if there is something you’d like to know more about or clarify something of the experience, please through some questions my way that might help elicit your curiosities and help me move from the experience to your knowing of the world of body work.

I will have to come back to the reflections about the Absent but Implicit as my drooping eyes are telling me it is time to sleep!
:yellowsleep: :yellowsleep: :yellowsleep:
Chat soon
Cate

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