Reflections on Lesson 5 (FKC): Externalising

Before joining this Conversation Forum , please review the materials in Lesson Five: Practices that engage with problems. These dividing practices – otherwise known as externalising conversations- are a cornerstone of narrative therapy. Here we aim to establish a space to look closely at how to engage with problems in ways that do not promote shame or blame of the families or children.

Lesson Topics include:

• a) What are externalizing conversations?
• b) Externalizing the problem and internalizing personal agency by Karl Tomm
• c) Commonly asked questions by Maggie Carey and Shona Russell
• d) Statement of position map
• e) Externalising Conversations Exercise

In addition, we hope to create a space where we can share applications of externalising conversations in our own work contexts. For example…, I’ve just returned from Mumbai, India where the participants in a year long Mental Health Training Programme presented a number of exciting illustrations of externalising conversations in their work with children, families, adults, community work and…even occupational therapy! We aim to make an entire course within the Rich Story Development series on “Externalizing conversations” – but first we want to be sure we establish a solid foundation for these dividing practices.

Come join us!

Peggy

November 6, 2014

Hello,

Peggy – I would love to hear more about your work in India. That sounds very interesting.

I wanted to say that today I started a first session with a woman with externalizing not a problem but a skill. It felt like the right place to start as she came into my office and said right off the bat – “I have lost my joy.” I guess I could have taken this into the problem but I was interested in her relationship with joy and what it felt like and what she knew about it. I figured she must know it well – otherwise she would not miss it.
In getting to know her joy – I found out a lot about her. Her love of people, animals, her caring ways, her relationship with her daughter, her relationship with her aunt who died many years ago. Then we went into the problem story – but I was glad I had this other foundation first.
She left my office walking on her “boots of joy” that she was wearing to head into a weekend visit with her daughter who lives eight hours away.
What joy that was!
cheers,
Sarah

December 7, 2014

Hi Sarah,

I appreciate and resonate with this example of externalizing not just a problem but a value or skill. It reminds me of David Epston’s work around getting to know young people according to their ‘wonderfulnesses.’ Because Peggy has given us a context for sharing ‘rhizomatic’ moments of realization, here is a link to an article that references ‘wonderfulness’ interviews:

https://www.mmcpla.org/docs/David%20Epston_David%20Marsten.pdf

Your story is also a reminder that we don’t have to move into the problem story right away, especially when there is an immediate opening to a preferred one. At the moment, you have me thinking about what value or skill I might research in my own life. What values/skills might problems tend to ‘crowd out’ as they move in? Patience? Happiness? Peace? And what do I know about connecting with these values/skills, even at difficult times? What people, practices, and objects support me in doing so? (I thought of objects based on your reference to “the Boots of Joy.” Where can I get a pair?! I’ve heard of “Boots Made for Walking, and that’s just what they’ll do…” but surely “Boots of Joy” are a new one.) What are the effects on me, on my life, on others, etc. when I strengthen my connection with Patience/Happiness/Peace?

Your work also reminds me of an exercise I’ve used while teaching. In Bill Madsen’s book, Collaborative Therapy with Multi-Stressed Families, he offers a list of questions practitioners can ask to assess what he refers to as “constraining” and “sustaining” elements. In the interest of creating a web of connection, here are his interview questions for “sustaining elements”:

1. Can you tell me more about X?
2. If X was not just a quality you have, but something you do, what are the skills that go into it? How do you “do” X? What are the practices of X? How did you develop those practices?
3. How would you like to use X in your life? Why is it important for you to use it in that way?
4. What values are important here? When you think of those values, what hopes or dreams do they reflect?
5. What do those hopes and dreams say about what you stand for in your life?

[Here’s a good example of Bill externalizing preferred values.] 6. As you think back across your life, what people come to mind that might appreciate your efforts to bring X more into your life? How have those people contributed to your development of X in your life?
7. If they could see you doing this X, what do you think it would tell them about you?

His book on Collaborative Therapy, as well as his latest one, can be found on his website at: https://www.family-centeredservices.org/resources.

Best,
Laurie

December 7, 2014

Hi Laurie!

Great resources! I love the article by the two Davids (Marsten and Epston) as well as Bill Madsen’s exercise. What do you think of the idea of creating a mini-course on Externalising Practices? It could be offered within he Rich Story Development series. We have so many resources already- it’s just a matter of creating the lessons, weaving them together. Reading your post made me want to stop everything just to work on that!
Peggy

December 8, 2014

(This post is in response to something Laurie sent to me last night via email. I’ll post Laurie’s words first, followed by my response).

Hi Peggy,

Thank you for the enthusiastic response. I am happy to share any teaching materials with you, including those I have on externalizing practices, counter-stories, letter writing, etc. For many Narrative topics, I have detailed PowerPoint presentations, sample transcripts and letters, possible interview questions, exercises, etc. I came into Narrative teaching with a background in high school education, so I have experience with curriculum and lesson development. It strikes me that it might not be that hard to ‘lift’ content that I’ve already created and offer it up for modules. If you’d like some help weaving things together, I’ll have more time free once our manuscript is completed (hopefully in the next couple of months). Maybe we can talk more about this when you’re here?

Good seeing you tonight, as always.

Warmly,
Laurie

Laurie, I’m delighted you would consider working with me on an online project focusing on externalising – and who knows, other topics as well. Now that you have completed the course, you can see how all elements work together: the lessons, the Zoom live-sessions and the Conversation Forum. Your experience as a high school teacher and with curricula development will come in handy. We can talk further next month in L.A….and then especially again once you and David finish your manuscript. There is much to look forward to!

Anyone else have materials you would like to share?

Peggy

December 8, 2014

Hello,
Wow, I share the enthusiasm here. Laurie I read your message this morning just as I was heading into a session with a woman who is really struggling with having hope and problems are taking up lots of room. Your thoughts bolstered my creativity and we wove our way into a thicker understanding of her hopes and dreams. Your thoughts and links and enthusiasm helped this happen so thank you!

I am keen on the idea of a specific course on this as there are some many layers and ways to weave in externalizing and even though I know this and practice this – I still forget this and talking about it and hearing examples is a way to keep me thinking and developing my practice.

thanks again!
Sarah

December 9, 2014

Great to hear you share our enthusiasm here, Sarah! Yes, let’s collect stories and materials for teaching externalising practices.

Peggy