Sarah Hughes (September 22, 2009)

Thanks for all that info on Chris, Peggy.  I have met him briefly through Michael but did not know all what he has done or thought about in his career so you have sparked my interest to read more by him including his memoir kind of book.

This particular article interested me as it gives kind of an overview of where narrative fits into the larger picture of family therapy but from a different perspective than I have read before.  In my family therapy program, we looked more at the ideas of narrative being outside of family therapy – of developing from other schools of thought like post modernism, philosphy, literature…. so I enjoyed reading how Chris framed this differently with the idea of “historical conditions”  I am still trying to get my mind around this idea.  I see him as looking at the history of practices and how ideas flowed out of these practices “follow in their train” he says. And he also makes it clear that this is all through his eyes, his perspective, his history.  This made me think more about my own historical conditions and the development of my practices and how theroy develops out of that.  A kind of turnabout to how I have thought about this before – theory leading to my practice.
Another bit I am considering – is the idea (or is it an image) of the art and science of narrative work.  There are a few lines that capture me. What do others think?

pg 367: These questions, framed with great precision by the consultant, produce in the interview a climate of encouragement and congeniality, sometimes inspiration, by an appeal to the recipients’s own inventiveness and ingenuity. The discipline of formulating these questions is the art and science of narrative work.

pg p371: The therapist’s art is to examine and enlarge the creativity of the client’s memory.”

What do you think of these descriptions?

Sarah

Mohammad: September 22, 2009

Hi Everyone,

I just came home after a wonderful evening celebrating a colleague’s 90th birthday. An old psychoanalyst no longer practicing that craft but still practicing psychiatry at the clinic one day a week, he is an inspiration to me. As I have just begun my career at age 52, I can see myself being around his age and like him still be able to sit with those who come to seek my consult and be “influential”.
I have been looking forward to coming home to sit with you all also and talk about this article and all else we have been saying here lately. Oh, there is so much to say and so little opportunity to put them into words- only if my fingers could take on a fraction of the speed that my thoughts can make different connections and weave different possibilities and endings to the many story lines that can at any moment be pursued.

These are some of my thoughts about the Beels article:

There was one surprise for me as I read this article: the statement that David Epston was “clearly a master hypnotist” was not anything I would have imagined him being likened to, but it was endearing to consider him to be hypnotic as I have found his way of talking and his image- what I have seen on videos- to be soothing.

The explanation of the idea of psychoanalytic resistance that “patients” were blamed for in psychoanalysis and how it through the influence of Foucault was turned on its head to become the “refusal to be dominated by the problem” helped me make a new connection for which I am thankful.

“From that place, however small, but supported by the “scaffolding” of the questions (White, 2001), clients built narratives, performances, and communities that overcame externalized rather than internalized obstacles to their pilgrimage.”
“In this formulation, White and Epston’s achievement paralleled Erickson’s vision of hypnosis as a deep collaboration with the subject’s implicit resources, the yin view of hypnosis, opposite to Haley’s yang notions of strategic power.”

A person who has been coming to me for consult for some time, a health care professional, was surprised by the oddity of my externalizing reference to “the depression” and expressed that: “It sounded like I talked of something that was out there” and found it very much contrast to her sense of ownership for it: “I have all along thought it as my depression”. As if she talked of a family heirloom, and one which was inseparable from her, one that she was at fault to have brought on to herself and one that gave shape to her as a person and her life, a notion that deep down, in the crevices of her soul, she was “her own worst enemy”, for she is just a broken vessel, crooked and vile.
The notion that it is out there, that there are colonizing forces that uphold it, then made it possible to dream of subverting those forces even more so, and she envisioned “a house and a yard in which to plant flowers and a partner to enjoy them with.” The Hope that has all along been lurking underneath, implicit, was then spoken of and acknowledged.

The passage at the bottom of the second paragraph under the heading “The Break Between Analytic Theory and Family Theory” resonated with me very much:
“This experience taught that the truth that makes us free must be upward and outward construction of a common purpose and possibility rather than a downward and inward analysis of hidden motives and secret hurts. The focus is on consequences rather than single truth, wishes beliefs and aspirations rather than motives, effects rather than causes, ethics rather than “science.” Coherence is achieved by looking forward rather than within.”

When I first went to a therapist for my own depression, I was searching for myriads of complex motives and hard to decipher riddles that my mysterious and pernicious psyche held deep inside its impenetrable walls, the barrier between me and my mind, my brain versus the rest of me, a portent of my own perniciousness. I was a “nut” to crack and the “science” of the psyche was to do that for me, with me, and to me.
Thirty years later I speak of freedom and liberation, aspirations for the future, and inspiration and Hope.

Your reflections about the story I posted has made me think of its parallels to my own life and a poem that I used to sing out loud when I for a time lived somewhat like Thoreau but more primitively in solitude. I am not sure whose “translation” this is, Robert Bly’s or Coleman Barks’, but it is attributed to Rumi:

Someone who goes with half a loaf of bread,
To a small place that fits around him like a nest,
Someone who wants no more,
Who’s not himself longed for by anyone else,
He is a letter to everyone,
You open it,
It says:
Live!

May you all be well!
Mohammad

Bonnie: September 23, 2009:

I am up in the night (now it is early morning, i guess- 5:00 am) full of excitement and stimulation because of a day spend with the narrative extern program students and faculty.

What else to do, but come here and read some more??

Mohammed- I appreciated what you wrote about the shift in your relationship to your own wellness- if we can offer something like that shift to the people we work with, what a gift!

and Sarah- I enjoy the quotes that you picked out- the art of question formulation is more and more where I land when I think about what I ‘offer’ to the partnership between myself and the people who come to my office.

Part of what I was noticing was the influence of context and training- Freud was trained as a neurologist, in scientific catagorization; Erikson as a hypnotist; Epston as an anthropologist; White as a social worker- and how these arenas of training can shape inquiry and practice- the challenge and invitation perhaps, is to not be constrained by training, but to continue to expand and inform and enrich our ideas/practices… Michael White was such a great example of this wide ranging inclusion of diverse ideas-

And Narrative practices invite me to learn from clients, and provide permission and structure for acknowledging this with them! This is so significant, to me- that learning is not separated from our daily work and the people we work with, it is an ongoing, incorporated experience.

This article really illuminated that for me, through the contrast with other ways of working. Inspiring…

Bonnie

André Grégoire: September 29, 2009

Hello to everyone,

Just a short introduction to say that unfortunately I have been out of the Study group since a few months having been overwhelmed by work, but I am back here as a participant in the discussion. At the beginning of this “new professional year”, I have decided to keep some time in my schedule for this ongoing conversation, as it’s very interesting and stimulating. I figure that I won’t participate actively very often and that I will “select” my readings and comments (as I have to put more energy in the readings and writing because English is a second language), but I will try to be with this group…

Now my comments and impressions regarding Christian Beels article… I really appreciated that text, and even at some moments I was moved by it… Well, first by Chritian Bells personal style of writing… I have the impression that his “tone” carries 2 types of information almost simultaneously, and going back and forth between those 2 styles has produced a really pleasant experience on myself. One “tone” is the informative one, where the author gives details and informations about the evolution phases or events towards a Narrative Practice. The other “tone”, which comes in at some moments, is the personal one where Christian Beels tells a personal story or connexion with this narrative practice. And these 2 “tones” weave together quite nicely all along the text… I liked it so much that I want to have more of it : I ordered his book A Different Story from Amazon two days ago…

Another reaction is that piece about the “centrifugal tendency” of Narrative Therapy… After Michael’s death, I was afraid that what we call Narrative Therapy might become “frozen in time”, partly due to the immense leadership and strong influence Michael had on the development of these practices, partly due also because Michael was so much cherished. I had this fear (and I expressed it often) that Narrative Therapy might become “ritualized” and “frozen”, with not so much space for new inputs or novelty. As months passed by, I went progressively reassured about that aspect, but I must say that Christian Beels perspective where he explains this “centrifugal tendency” and the clear intention of David Epston and Michael White to “structure” the community along this line gives me a lot of reassurance about that aspect. It put a new piece in my puzzle about that aspect and I really appreciate being reassured/convinced about that…

And that brings me to a metaphor that came in my mind as I was reading about that aspect… I had this analogy of Narrative Therapy being organized as an “open source” community… like in the computer field when some developers around the universe try to build computer program with “open source code”, like the Linux platform as an alternative to Microsoft, or the Firefox browser, etc. And I think it’s the best way to assure that this Narrative Therapy practice always stays, 1) reflexive regarding its own practices, and 2) open and developing new exciting possibilities in the future…

I also want to point a few specific sentences that had an impact on myself:

– p.367 : “The process of helping someone to name, describe, and therefore possess new knowledge is the beginning of narrative work”

I never used in the past these terms to define Narrative Therapy, but I will surely do in the future… I think that it captures the essence of that practice with other words that I used, and from my perspective it’s a clever definition…

– p. 370 : “This experience taught that the truth that makes us free must be an upward and outward construction of a common purpose and possibility rather than a downward and inward analysis of hidden motives and secret truths. (…) Coherence is achieved by looking forward rather than within.”

Mohammad in a previous posting had also noticed that specific sentence and made a comment on it. It’s interesting it had striken a chord for me also…

And I put with that sentence that other one which appears later on page 376 and that I feel it’s connected : “… the purpose of theory is not to describe a central hidden reality, but to explore and extend the limits of practice”… Well said!

– and this other one on page 371 : “This view of therapy makes the search for the right audience as important as the search for the right story”

That reminded me when I started practicing Narrative Therapy, I was “concentrated” on this second aspect… looking for the “right story”… not so much now, but I think that’s a good reminder here made by Christian Beels…

I have to stop now as I have a meeting with a person in a few moments. I still have a couple of comments that I would like to share about that text, so I will try to be back later, probably tomorrow…

André Grégoire

Sarah Hughes: October 1, 2009

Andre,
It is good to have your voice back and the careful attention to language that you bring. I have spent this week craving supervision for my work and well, on Monday I had some with my team leader from Mental Health and I ended up feeling like he perhaps considered me naive and not to bright as I talked about people in hopeful and expansive ways.  He kept bringing me back to “yes, but don’t forget she is a borderline Sarah and they will use you.”  That flet yucky.  Then the consultation I had planned with another woman who is a lovely open pyschologist was cancelled and instead we had a presentation on childhood development that was flat and did not fit with me all that well.  ANyway – reading your post and just reflecting on the sentence that both you and Mohammad noticed
p. 370 : “This experience taught that the truth that makes us free must be an upward and outward construction of a common purpose and possibility rather than a downward and inward analysis of hidden motives and secret truths. (…) Coherence is achieved by looking forward rather than within.”
This seemed to give me the reflective kind of supervision conversation in my mind that I craved.  I thought through some of my conversations over the past few days and saw how this worked, what this meant in a conversation.  ANd how it shifts sometimes back to the within and then it can be reopened.  I love this awareness.
I am also thinking about how it is more of a struggle in my own life as my new partner struggles with my teenage son. They seem to both be only seeing hidden motives in each other and I am trying os say let all that go and let’s just work on something they both have skills in and value – relationship.  BUt alas- it is hard blending new family combinations.
ANyway – thanks for the generative conversations you sparked in my mind.
Sarah

André Grégoire: October 2, 2009

Hello again,

Just a few more comments regarding Christian Beels article that I did not had time to write in my previous message…

First…
When Christian Beels talks about “leadership” in the field of family therapy (p. 372-374), he brings a point about the contribution and transformation under the influence of “female leadership”. Well, even if it really appears true when you read it, I must confess that I had not taken notice of that aspect before (and I have not seen or heard it to often mentioned when I hear historical accounts or read articles about the evolution of psychotherapy). So, it’s a good point to mention that.

Second…
Another excerpt that struck me is the one on page 368 when Christain Beels write : “… clients built narratives, performances, and communities that…” Well, I saw these 3 words or expressions connected together, like in a progressive way or “scaffold”. And I liked the picture that it brings in my mind, as if we go from narratives, which then make possible performances, which again make possible communities…Well, maybe it’s just my own interpretation of the excerpt, but that am pleased with that way of seing things in a progressive way…

Third…
Finally (and here it’s a reflection, but also a question which I would like to hear comments from other people… and maybe from Christian Beels himself in the future as, if I understood correctly from Peggy’s reading, he might eventually come in the discussion…)
My question-reflection is about how the “humanistic school” of therapy fits in that historical evolution? Here I am thinking, as a leader of that period, about Carl Rogers. It seems to me that, in between the psychodynamic period and the family therapy period that there was the humanistic one as a major era in the field, and if I am right I would like to figure out the evolution of ideas and the connections between this period and these other ones.
And myself thinking about that, I sometimes think that the Rogerian and humanistic influence was in a certain way close to narrative thinking and values. For example, they were envisioning and promoting a less modernist self, they were inviting the person’s voice in the definition of his reality (asking and pointing to his needs, for example), they were taking an egalitarian therapeutic posture, and so on… But I have the idea also that after a while that “humanistic trend” turned out towards a more modernist perspective, as then they start to “classify” or invent a hierarchy of needs, talking about “natural needs” or “primary needs”, and that’s when (my actual ideas or opinion) they went back in the main trend of a modernist psychology… But I can still see that these humanistic people share with our narrative perspective some values and ways of doing things in consultation, the main one being “acceptance” and positioning ourselves on an egalitarian level with the person who comes to consult with us, practitioners…

I would really like to hear some comments on that last point, either about how the humanistic period fits in the history and evolution of psychotherapy, or about the connection and differences between that perspective and the narrative one…

André Grégoire